Self-Directed Learning

Self-Directed Learning
Dec. 7, 2006

Guests: Ken Danford, executive director of North Star: Self Directed Learning for Teens; and Catherine Gobron, North Star’s assistant director.

Anthony Rebora, teachermagazine.org (Moderator):
Welcome to our live chat on self-directed learning. Our guests are Ken Danford and Catherine Gobron, who are, respectively, the executive director and assistant director of North Star, a learning center for homeschooling teenagers in Hadley, Mass. As is detailed in Teacher Magazine’s recent article on North Star, the center caters mostly to students who became disaffected with high school, and many of them say the its unstructured approach has reawakened their interest learning. It’s certainly a model that challenges the conventional high school environment. But let’s get to your questions about it.

Question from Jill Rauenhorst, EdSpeech/Lang Clinician:
If there are no assessments and no checking up on kids, how do you know it is “working” for a particular child. Conceivably, a student could play video games all day long every day, right? I know some kids with ASD that would love that, but how does that increase their worth as a future employee?

Ken Danford:
We do check in with teens regularly about how they are doing. We also have regular meetings with parents. If a teen is spending a lot of time playing games, we ask the teen and the parent if that is okay with them. Usually people express satisfaction or unhappiness, and we respond accordingly. Actually, this situation is much less common than one thinks. People can play video games all day, but really, very very few people choose to do so. When a teen does behave in this way, and we check in with the parent and the teen if this is the life they really want to be living, there is usually a more complicated story and understanding going on. In my opinion, it wouldn’t help for me to step in and forbid a teen from playing games. And, teens who do play games or otherwise ‘waste time’ at 13 or 14 or 15 do in fact get jobs and go to college. I don’t see the two things as connected. Ken

Question from Miles Myers, Senior Researcher, ISCA, Los Angeles:
How do Ken and Catherine edvaluate the strength and weaknesses of their program?

Ken Danford:
Strength: We provide a real sense of hope and renewal for people who feel trapped in school, telling them that they really can change their lives immediately. Our intensive support for parents and teens as they go through this transition is a real strength. Our pleasant environment is great. The range of adults who come through North Star to teach is fantastic. We have a wonderful scene here and we work hard to address each family’s concerns and see teens grow. Weakness: In the program, very few. This approach is not for everyone. Some people find the self-directed process like self-employment. And for some people it is too much stress and responsibility. Some teens try this and prefer to go back to school. Some of our teens have siblings who wouldn’t dream of wanting to homeschool or come to North Star. We do a lot with parents one-on-one. It would be good to structure in more parent support group time. Organizationally, we operate on a shoestring budget. It would add security to pay our staff more, to have more space, more cushion.

Question from Miles Myers, Senior Researcher, ISCA, Los Angeles:
Do students learn some subjects better in a home schooling enviornment?

Catherine Gobron:
This is an interesting question because “a home schooling environment” can mean anything outside of a public or private school setting. Some students enjoy learning in group, like in a class. Others benefit from one on one tutorials. Still others prefer to read or otherwise learn some things on their own. Sometimes an individual student will choose a different format for each subject they may be studying. If I were to answer this question more generally, I would say yes, students learn some subjects better in a homeschooling environment because they are 1. able to choose these subjects based on their own interests, and 2. they have more flexibility in finding a format that works for them as an individual.

Question from Deborah Mapp-Embry, Education Consultant, Insight.Schooling Solutions LLC:
What is the demographic breakdown of the school? Do all former students have success in entering higher education? Does race or ethnicity or economic standing impact those graduates and in what ways?

Ken Danford:
North Star is predominantly white. We have a number of bi-racial students here. We have a huge range of socio-economic diversity. All members who want to go to college have been able to go. Some don’t like the college classroom any more than they liked the junior high classroom. But, everyone has been able to begin with the local community colleges or UMass, or auditing at the local private colleges. I think that leaving high school has a different tone and feel for different racial groups. The historical goal of African-Americans has been integration into schools, and the right to decent public schooling has been the subject of intense and insprirational efforts. Walking out of school, and imagining life without the traditional high school diploma, is out of step with this history. And assuming one won’t be judged negatively for making this choice is more doubtful and feels riskier for many African-Americans, Puerto Ricans, and Cambodians who live around here. I do believe the process works, but where families begin with these ideas is certainly impacted by history. There is an interesting book by Paula Penn-Nabrit, an African-American woman who lives near Columbus, Ohio about her experience homeschooling her sons. And, to bring up another idea, I think that many non-white students who feel their families and their histories are not welcome or central to the schooling experience may have the most to gain by knowing they have an alternative to traditional school.

Question from Sheri McCuskey, grade 6, Cloquet Middle School, Cloquet, MN:
How is the learning facilitated and what kind of credentials and subject area concentrations do the staff have? Also, is it more 1-1?

Catherine Gobron:
Our program almost certainly offers more 1 on 1 interactions than most schools have the time or resources to provide. We have a small student population, presently 45-50, and a large staff which includes many college students through our work study relationships with several local universities. Learning is facilitated through frequent individual meetings to assess the needs and interests of each student. Both Ken and I have advanced degrees in education and extensive experience as teachers.

Question from Dr. Paul Pena, Shelter School Teacher, St. Joseph’s Home for Children Shelter School:
Why can’t self motivated students be self motivating in already existing schools? It can’t be only the unstructured time.

Ken Danford:
Lots of people are self-motivating within schools. I was. Most of my friends were. We found our high school to be a reasonble and downright good place to be. We made the best of what was good and we minimized and let go of what we didn’t like. Not everyone experiences school in this way. Some people don’t enjoy it, feel controlled, or disrespected, and they find it impossible to set aside these frustrations. Also, some people find the things they really want to do aren’t prioritized, welcome, or possible in school. What if someone wants to write a long novel? Or take nature photography seriously? Or learn an instrument as a primary activity? Or any other interest that would demand a lot of focused time in a place other than the school building? People get frustrated when they are always told, “You can do what you want with your time after you finish what I ask you to do first.” In these cases, it’s like an adult in a job they don’t like who feels they can’t quit. They feel trapped. Sure, they might reach down and find “self-motivation” to make the best of it. But making the best of it doesn’t have to be the limit of the options.

Question from Kim Weaster, Teacher, Magnolia Achievement Program:
How much and/or what kind of technology is available at North Star? I am intrigued by your approach to self-directed and meaningful learning! Thank you, Kim Weaster

Catherine Gobron:
We have 4 computers online and available teens. We’ve had several others donated recently but lack the space to set them up. Many members bring their own laptops for which we have wireless service. We have a tv with vcr and dvd.

Question from Rosa Basi, FL Teacher, Scotland High School:
I read the article about the North Star center but I didn´t see any references to foreign languages. I like that laissez-faire idea, but how would you teach Spanish, for example, in such unstructured environment, especially beginning levels, where there´s a lot of skill-building and little independent work? Thanks, Rosa

Catherine Gobron:
We happen to have both French and Spanish on our calendar this year. French is divided into 2 levels, and both classes are very small, with just 3-5 students. This allows the teacher to be very hands-on with each student. Another student is more advanced than the other students in either class level and the teacher tutors her individually. The Spanish class is larger with about 10 students. I created it to help prepare a specific group of students for a March trip to Costa Rica. With this goal ahead of us, this beginner class is focused on learning a minimum amount of traveller’s Spanish. While these are the specifics of our two current language classes, I will make a couple of comments about learning a language within this model. First of all, while our center is open 4 days per week, students are not necessarily encouraged to spend all of their time here. One of many advantages of being out of school is the ability to access many resources within the community. If a student wants to learn a language, it may work out that we have someone on staff or can find someone to work with them. Otherwise we would help the teen to find another class or individual in the community to learn from. My point is that a North Star member’s learning is not limited to the resources we have to offer here at the center. Secondly, while the structure of our organization is much less restricted than a school setting, each class is not necessarily “laissez-faire.” Different teachers design their classes in different ways. Some require work outside of class, others do not. Also, all of the classes are optional. Any student in any class is there because they choose to be. If a student is in French class, it is because they want to learn French. Students that are choosing to learn are very receptive. Thanks for your interest.

Question from drklein@villagehomeschool.com:
How to you answer critics who are concerened about, “gaps” in student learning? Bette

Ken Danford:
Yes, we all have gaps. I have gaps, and I got straight a’s in school. Most kids who go to school don’t learn everything that is offered, or retain it. How many students in school even make honor roll? 25%? Schooling is no protection against gaps. What we want are people who know what they know and are honest about what they don’t know. People who are willing and able to learn things they need for the next step. The homeschoolers I know aim to be strong in their passions and deal with their ‘gaps’ as needed. Sort of like adults!

Question from Conny Jensen, GT advocate:
What “basics” do you feel students need (to know) before they can be “entrusted” with edcuating themselves further?

Catherine Gobron:
I don’t feel that students need to be “entrusted.” A concern for one’s own success in life, an interest in the world around them, these are not things that can be given. They can be allowed or obstructed. We are trying allow and facilitate what we believe is a natural human tendency, the will to learn.

Question from Donna Edrington, Media Coordinator, Huntsville Elementary School:
How does participation in North Star figure into college admissions requirements?

Ken Danford:
Most of our teens begin college by signing up for classes at the local community colleges or at UMass when they are ages 16-18. There are no formal requirements for this. Then, when they are ready to apply to four-year full-time programs, we provide support, letters, and coaching to organize their presentation. North Star classes themselves are not for credit. We write a lot of college recommendation letters describing what people have done here.

Question from William Lanphear CTO Glynlyon:
How does Mr Danford see the self-directed learning employed at North Star potentially impacting mainstream schools in the future?

Ken Danford:
I don’t think we will have an impact on mainstream schools. I would love to think that guidance counselors and school psychologists might recommend certain teens and families to consider our program. Maybe we can give schools a decent option for some of their unhappier students. I would love to see other people create similar programs in other communities, and create a larger awareness that a North Star supported-homeschooling approach offers an alternative on a broad level. We may be hosting a workshop in th spring for people interested in this idea. The suggestions we have for school could hardly be implemented except at the edges: more independent study opportunities, more options for learning outside of the school building, more respect for teens who really don’t like schooling.

Question from Ken Komoski, Chairman, EPIE Institute:
Is the current interest in North Star prompting other efforts in additional communities? If so, where? If so how scaleable does Danforth think this approach may be? What would help scaleability?

Ken Danford:
We often receive inquiries from people who want to create something like North Star where they live. I think that the idea is very scaleable...I hope lots of people and groups will find ways to make this approach work for them. Again, we may be hosting a workshop in the spring for people interested in doing this. We’ve had inquiries from all over...North Carolina, Ohio, California, Iowa. Even New Zealand, once. What would help replications is start up money for people who want to get something like this going, plus some kind of ongoing network for mutual support. I would enjoy being part of such a vision, as would Joshua Hornick, North Star’s co-founder.

Question from Lynn H. Blake, College Placement Counselor, Marlboro Academy:
What admissions criteria and.or data is used by admissions counselors in colleges from students at North Star if no testing or grades are administered?

Catherine Gobron:
Admissions committees ask our members for the same types of information as other homeschoolers nationwide. This may or may not include SAT scores, reading lists, college courses, community involvement, homeschool curriculum, and so forth. College applications from homeschoolers likely use more paper than a traditional application and may result in more reading for admissions officers. The applications may also result in a more whole picture of the applicant and their abilities. Certainly homeschooler applications are becoming more familiar to colleges as this trend continues to grow.

Question from David Ralph, Instructor, Job Corps:
Do your students get a diploma? How do they do on the state’s exit exams?

Catherine Gobron:
We are not a school so we do not give diplomas. Our members are homeschoolers. In MA homeschoolers do not sit any mandatory exams. Many of our members choose to take the GED which they generally pass with ease at the age of 16.

Question from Matt L. Teacher, Fairfax County Schools:
How do you decide a young person needs intervention in the choices they’re making, and how do you approach such an intervention? For instance, what happens if a young person decides to spend the majority of their day playing video games and shows little interest in other endeavors?

Ken Danford:
My intervention usually requires my sense of self-harm...substance abuse, suicidal issues, depression, self-endangerment, or radical breaking of a parent’s trust. I approach such a situation by telling the teen I"m concerned, ask if their parents are aware of what I’m seeing, and let them know I feel a need to talk with their parents. Can I call, or would they like to talk with them first? Would they like to do this together, or have me talk to the parent without the teen present? A kid playing video games receives comments about my awareness of what he is doing (yes, it’s usually a he), and checking if his parents understand that this is what he is doing at North Star. Does he have intentions of doing anything else here that he is forgetting? I check in with the parent as well, that a teen is primarily playing. When there are no misunderstanding, I consider this -- gaming -- a parental issue. For me, I’m not inspired by playing video games all day, and my wife and I have reasonably strict limits on what our children can do. But at North Star, it is not my job to tell someone to turn off his computer because I judge him to be wasting his time. Remember, this is like a ymca. Would a staff member or a director at a Y come up and tell someone they are socializing too much, too much ping pong, and it’s time to hit the weights? No. That’s my role. To be aware, share my concern, and let the teen and parent work it out. Again, this is a common question for a very uncommon situation. Very few kids want to sit and play games all day. Really. And, if I judged the teen and told them to stop, what would they do? Leave and continue their thing elsewhere. And distrust me. It’s not helpful for me to judge how teens spend their time here. I’m supporting a long term goal of self-management.

Question from drklein@villagehomeschool.com:
How do you explain to parents what they are paying for and how their children use their time in the program?

Ken Danford:
They are paying for lots of things. Ongoing support and informal counseling; curriculum ideas; classes at North Star; tutoring as best we can provide it; connections to people and places in the communities; support with transition to the next phase of life; a social headquarters for their teen. Every teen uses North Star differently. Some come just for classes or tutoring. Some come just to socialize. Most feel deeply supported by our presence. Lifelong homeschoolers who understand the approach, feel they have open communication in their families, and a wide network of activities and social opportuniities for their teens may not see the need for all of this. Most people with unhappy kids in school thinking of this transition want all of this and more!

Question from Joe Petrosino, Mid Career Student , Penn:
How do teachers and school leaders go about building a community of trust in this school setting? How does one know when they have successfully built that community? How would you measure the present levels?

Catherine Gobron:
I am very proud of our community at North Star. We do have a trusting community with overwhelmingly positive interactions between students and between staff and students. While the students here are an assortment of average teenagers, they are much more pleasant to be around than one might anticipate. I believe there are several reasons that our teens feel safe enough to behave with honesty and integrity most of the time. First of all, that is how we (the staff) treat them. We let them know at the start that we are not going to try to force them to do anything. We have no agenda for individuals. Then we follow through on that promise, often to their great surprise. We trust them and accept them for who they are and where they are. We also let them know at the start that we will support them. We keep our appointments with them, we follow through on whatever arrangements we have planned. We are trustworthy. Staff members also spend a lot of unstructured time in the community space getting to know the teens in a friendly way. Occasionally we will help to raise the level of conversation and facilitate communication between members. Finally, if any members are having problems sharing a space we have an “annoyance meeeting” in which all parties are given space to share their grievances and a compromise is reached. The short answer though, is that they trust us because we trust them, and the result is a very special community.

Question from Steve Thompson, Intructional Technology, Henry County School, GA:
Are you using any online learning with students?

Catherine Gobron:
Some of our kids have online courses, or correspondence courses. Familiar to homeschoolers, like Oak Meadow, American School, University of Nebraska. Others are doing online courses through our local community colleges or UMass. Our work is mostly face to face with teens. We do plenty of email with the parents, however!

Question from Arthur Kadlec, College Student, Asbury College:
After reading the “Don’t Call It School” article, a question came to mind. I really like the idea of North Star and the focus on the student choosing their education, but are some of the courses offered really beneficial to society and the students? For example Star Trek. I could understand if these classes acted as gateways for the students to become passionate about their studies, but a Star Trek course sounds a bit odd to me.

Catherine Gobron:
I find the Star Trek course odd too. I wouldn’t take it because I don’t find the show particularly interesting. However, there are about 10 students here who disagree with me and enjoy it very much. They like to watch the show and discuss it as a group. They dissect the dialogue, the directing, the filming, do character analysis, and plot development. They have written their own spin offs and several have created their own costumes. I would argue that these activities are valuable. The classes on our calendar are not designed to fulfill any particular curriculum. They reflect the passions and skills of our staff and volunteers.

Question from Sondra Paulson, Teacher, NJ:
How do you accomodate the students who have limited time organization skills? When it comes to the end of the semester and there are several assignments incomplete, how is that handled?

Ken Danford:
Time deadlines come from parents or the teens themselves. We work with teens and families together. But we do this from day one, and so it is an ongoing thing. We are frequently working with teens who find it hard to stay on top of their desired schedules, and we work with that issue as part of our check-ins.

Question from connie hong, parent of two gifted homeschoolers:
What advices do you have for elementary aged child that enjoys child led study? Any particular good resources?

Catherine Gobron:
The library. And of course there are zillions of resources on the internet. Our family homeschools- I have 2 young children- and I find the library to be such an incredible place. We are also very involved with a large local group of homeschooling families that I have found to be invaluably supportive.

Question from William Lanphear CTO Glynlyon:
How do Mr. Danford and Ms. Gobron see curriculum providers could adapt to be more relevant to the self-directed learning processes so successful at North Star?

Ken Danford:
I’m not sure I see this as a problem. Sometimes our teens want to learn a specific thing, and having a structured curriculum is just what they want. We encourage our families to develop their own curricula, but that includes using standard materials when appropriate. And, there are plenty of creative materials available. The key thing is for families to feel confident in choosing content and methods. Curriculum providers already do a fine job of figuring out what their customers want.

Question from Paul J. Smith, Ed.D., Facilitator, Accelerated Learning Center (ACC), Little Rock School District:
I notice sex education on your Dec 2006 Calendar on the website for Northstarteens.org. Of what is that composed? Is an adult present? What philosophy is followed? What are the qualifications of the adult in charge?

Catherine Gobron:
I have scheduled a series of sex education informational workshops, the first of which is next week. A community health education professional from Tapestry Health in Northampton, MA will lead these hour long discussions, the first of which is about pregnancy prevention. Certainly I don’t advocate teenage sex, but I do recognize that our students are sexual beings that will choose to have intercourse at some point in their lives. My hope in scheduling this workshop is that they will be educated about the options available to them at that time. Next month’s workshop will be about sexually transmitted diseases. In February another workshop will focus on sexual decision making and relationship issues. All of the workshops are optional and open to all members.

Question from drklein@villagehomeschool.com:
How did you get the funding to open your center?

Ken Danford:
Joshua Hornick, the co-founder, and I put up $7,500. Then we didn’t get paid very much. Joshua and I both had the financial resources to make this happen. I think that start-up money is a difficult obstacle.

Question from Bill Heuer, MHLA (Mass Home Learning Assoc):
There seems to be a lot of misconceptions about the term “unschooling”. How would you define the term and how analogous is it to your environment?

Ken Danford:
As I understand it, unschooling signifies having a goal of learning outside the parameters of traditional schooling. Beyond that I am loathe to go on record attempting to define something that varies so widely among practitioners. My personal issue with the term is the adversarial relationship the “un” implies. North Star could be considered a place of unschooling because we support many, many ways of learning and respect the right and ability of individuals to direct their own learning. However, it is not our goal to be in an adversarial relationship with school. We are not the opposite of school, we’re just a different model altogether. Finally, all unschoolers are legally homeschoolers and I have concerns about using multiple terms that may confuse people who are not familiar with the homeschooling phenomenon and the fact the every homeschooling family has their own way of proceeding, not just unschoolers.

Question from drklein@villagehomeschool.com:
How disruptive is it to have children coming and going all day to those who are there longer? Bette

Catherine Gobron:
Not at all. How disruptive is it a a YMCA or health club? As long as people can do it a reasonably mature manner, which they do.

Question from Paul J. Smith, Ed.D., Facilitator, Accelerated Learning Center (ACC), Little Rock School District:
What is the number and percentage of your students who progress to the college level?

Catherine Gobron:
I would guess that 75% of our teens take at least one college course during their time here or immediately after leaving. Most do go on to get some degree. We have a list of colleges attended by alumni somewhere on our website.

Question from Jen - former MAT student, new unschooler :):
Do you have any sense of how big the population of “former teachers/teachers-in-training turned homeschoolers” there are? I get the sense that there are a lot of us out there, but can’t find a way to quantify.

Catherine Gobron:
I don’t have any specific information about this but I agree that it does seem to be a growing population.

Question from Steve Knight, Math teacher, L.D. Bell High School, Hurst, TX:
Is this just Summerhill, all over again?

Ken Danford:
No. Summerhill is a boarding school. People lived there and spent all of their time there. North Star is a drop in community center for teens living at home! We do not believe that teens need to be here to learn! We are trying to integrate our members into the wider community, and see it as success when they move outside our premises! Our calendar of classes and the people coming through here in a week offer more of a schedule than Summerhill does, I believe, but I may be wrong. I’ve been told our schedule is much more than Sudbury Valley type schools would offer. What else do you mean by “just Summerhill all over again” I sense a deeper criticism.

Question from Paul J. Smith, Ed.D., Facilitator, Accelerated Learning Center (ACC), Little Rock School District:
What sort of work opportunities have surfaced for North-Star students?

Catherine Gobron:
We have students volunteering and interning all over...radio stations, horse barns, sheep farms, parents’ center, Food Bank...paying jobs come up more irregularly, and often depend on family contacts. Teens have jobs in delis, movie theaters, gas stations, even a poison dart frog distribution warehouse! Adults in our community are wide open to taking interested teens under their wings..one has an apprenticeship in wildlife photography right now. Some create their own businesses, like computer programming. One has opened a restaurant that now has two branches, Amherst and Northampton. It’s named Andiamo.

Question from Jack Scott, History/Social Science Secondary Ed. Coordinator, Wheaton College:
How would a 1 to 1 coorespondence of students to computers (personally on loan to individual students) contribute to self-directed learning? Is this going to be an essential element in the future?

Ken Danford:
computers are a very useful tool. If everyone had a computer that would be nice. Nearly all of our members have a computer in their homes. But not everyone. Clearly, one can learn without a computer! One can read good books, write poetry or stories, practice an instrument, memorize lines for a play...I grew up without a computer! Much of the computer time is spent doing informal web browsing. Not bad, but not magical. And I don’t think computer gaming is particularly essential. Word processing is very helpful. Using the web for a bit of research is also cool. Finding out stuff you don’t know quickly is great...I do it all the time. But is a computer essential to learn? No. North Star could lose all of its computers (expcept this one, my office computer!) and the kids would be annoyed but survive and learn just fine. Ken

Question from Rose G. Newington Galley High School:
How does this approach to learning work with uneducated parents? I can see how a child with strong parental role models could flourish with this amount of freedom, but what about a child with poor role models. Don’t children have to be exposed to things before they can decide if they’re worth pursuing?

Ken Danford:
Uneducated parents is a loaded term. Teens get exposed to lots of things. A shortcut for me is to answer that with a center such as North Star, your concerns are eliminated. We have lots of staff, people, expertise, concern, and exposure. A parent who may not feel confident about his or her own education may reduce a lot of anxiety with the support of our center. Without North Star, sure it’s more of a concern. But a loving parent seeks help. what do these families do during the summer? And, how does a kid with no parental support do in school? It’s a hard way to grow up, schooling or homeschooling. Exposure is difficult concept. My brother hated school. He had a job at a local gas station that did repairs in those days, and met important mentors there. He built and flew model airplanes. He constructed a darkroom in our basement. None of these endeavors involved my parents! Loving, present, concerned parents are important to us all. So is having the chance to wake up happy every morning with some sense of self-control. Exposure happens. Again, if every community had a North Star type program, the question is eliminated, in my opinion.

Ken Danford:
We work with all interested families regardless of their ability to pay our fee! We have never turned away an interested teen or family. Our fee is modest: $3,000-$6,000 per year (self-selecting.) Families that can’t do the low end do what they can. This makes our work that much more difficult. And aside from money issues, we work with families with all sorts of other issues. We are not a private school with an application and reject some. We pretty much work with everyone who shows up.

Question from Marlene Snyder, Ph.D., Clemson University:
How prevalent is bullying behavior (cyberbullying included) in your school environment? What kind of policies and procedures do you have in place for dealing with peer to peer bullying behaviors?

Catherine Gobron:
Bullying is not at all common. One advantage that we have is the teens ability to move of their own free will. No one is forced to sit next to someone they don’t get along with just because both of their last names start with H. If someone is bothering you or making you uncomfortable, you can always get away from them. One of the few rules that we have is that no one can behave in a way that makes someone else not want to be here. If that is occurring then any member can call an “annoyance meeting” on another member. This means that all parties involved sit with either Ken or myself and discuss the problem. A solution is reached and the teens go back to their day. Sometimes we find we have such meetings several times with the same 2 teens. Eventually the problem is abandoned. I would just say also that our mixed age, grade-less setting is not conducive to bullying. They are not in competition with each other and they are all in different places emotionally and academically. There aren’t right and wrong ways to be. Bully don’t stand to gain anything so the behavior is not useful.

Question from Alex Gerould, Reporter, Jamestown Post-Journal:
Mr. Danford, What are the benefits that your students experience by having the environment that they do? Do you have any research that indicates this type of learning is more beneficial than regular public school classes?

Ken Danford:
What are the benefits? A sense of self-control. Why do some people prefer to work for themselves rather than for a large business? The independence is satisfying. Their is a sense of freedom, but their is also an acceptance of responsibility. Teens I know seem very mature compared to what we expect. A sense of well-being and confidence and joy. Our teens are glad to wake up! They look forward to Mondays! They don’t like snow days! And they feel good about the lives they are leading. I have no new research to point to. Homeschooling in its modern form has plenty of research. Prior to the modern public schooling movement in the late 1800s, most people learned this way!

Question from Paul J. Smith, Ed.D., Facilitator, Accelerated Learning Center (ACC), Little Rock School District:
What sort of community involvement do youngsters at North-Star participate in?

Catherine Gobron:
This varies quite a bit as you might imagine. All of them are more involved in the community than they might otherwise be simply because they have the time and the freedom to be out in the world. Many choose to be specifically involved in a variety of ways. They may take classes through audit or for credit at any of our local colleges. Some volunteer at the Survival Center, a local food pantry, with children in one of many daycare centers, at the animal shelter, reading to the elderly... We have had many teens choose all of these opportunities and more.

Question from Geneen D. Massey, ESOL Facilitator, Miami Carol City Senior High:
I understand some of North Star’s alumni have gone on to elite colleges without having earned a high school diploma first. Can you give examples? Who helps make that possible for students? How does it work?

Ken Danford:
One of our students is at Amherst college on a full $40,000/year scholarship. Another is at the Manhattan School of Music. There are lots more. Private schools don’t require GEDS. Contact some of your local colleges and ask them how they handle applications from homeschoolers. The burden is on the homeschooler to make a credible and interesting case that they have done good work and are ready for college, and that they won’t be anti-institutional and leave the minute they join. Heck, they didn’t want to be part of a high school, how do we know they will want to be part of this organization? They make portfolio presentations, have letters of reference, transcripts from other courses, interviews, and so on, and maybe SATs. My understanding is that public universities require a diploma or a GED. Make a few calls, and let us know!

Question from Margalo Miller, Director Resource Development, KPM Institute:
Our Institute runs a private school where students direct their own learning from K-12. I am very interested in your model as it takes what we do and makes it more accessible. Do you see this model working for younger students?

Catherine Gobron:
There are certain aspects of our program that are not conducive to younger students but are nevertheless integral to North Star. Our members are free to come and go of their own volition. We are on the bus line and do not monitor the students whereabouts. This doesn’t work for younger people for obvious and unfortunate reasons. Other programs like Sudbury Valley seem to successfully combine the freedom to direct one’s own education with younger students’ needs for more supervision.

Question from William Gaynor, Writer, Learning Media:
This scenario rings bells (even if they’re not ringing at recess). A.S. Neil’s Summerhill school in the UK. How do you suppose that this setting will achieve more satisfactory results than Neil was able to get?

Ken Danford:
I don’t know enough about the results he got. I answered a question a minute ago about Summerhill. I think we are signficantly different. We are not removing kids from their communities; we are encouraging kids to integrate into their communities. It’s a different thing.

Question from drklein@villagehomeschool.com:
How receptive is the traditional schooling community to your novel approach to student success? Are they open to working with your center?

Ken Danford:
The traditional schooling community is relatively cool to us. A few teachers or guidance counselors or psychologist recommend kids occasionally. By and large, school people believe that teens are better off in the school with them. When I was teaching and first heard of homeschooling, I certainly was a pretty major skeptic. We’ve had one local principal told us she hoped to put us out of business (by making her school so pleasant that nobody would ever want to leave!)

Question from Karen Rowe, teacher,Riverside Elem:
For years, I have felt that the high school does not meet the needs of most students especially for my son. I believe that students should be self directed. Any ideas how to initiate some of your program with a public high school?

Ken Danford:
It’s hard to do this sort of thing inside a public school. I would push for as many independent studies as possible, and as flexible a schedule as possible. But the compulsory nature of school makes it all difficult. You may want to have your son be a legal homeschooler and then push for as much inclusion as you wish in the school program. See what they say.

Question from William Lanphear CTO Glynlyon:
Could Mr. Danford and Ms.Gobron comment on the role of computers and the Internet in the activities at North Star and what is needed to make them more relevant.

Ken Danford:
I commented a few minutes ago that computers and the internet are very useful tools. I use them both. Most of kids do too. But they are just tools. The goal is to support teens to want to learn some new topic. Whether they use a computer or not is not that important to me. I’m concerned about maturity, initiative, and risk-taking. Saying one wants to learn something -- that is a risk. How can we help teens to express their wishes, their visions, and feel they can do something about it? Sometimes a quick internet search is a great way to start --it’s amazing what we find out there. I’m glad it’s a resource. But it’s not the central thing.

Question from Barbara Kairson, Administrator, District Council 37 Education Fund, AFSCME, AFL-CIO:
Stephen Brookfield describes Self-directed Learning as a process by which learners take control of their own learning and set goals, locate appropriate resources, decide on appropriate learning methods and evaluate their own progress. Is this the same criteria used to determine the effectiveness of self-directed learning for teens at North Star? If not, what criteria is used to determine how and if learning has occured in the student group?

Catherine Gobron:
I like that definition very much. That’s what we help students do at North Star.

Anthony Rebora, teachermagazine.org (Moderator):
That’s all the time we have for this discussion. Thank for for tuning in and submitting questions. And I want to thank Ken and Catherine for their answers--they were working very quickly. I thought it was very compelling discussion.

Ken Danford:
Feel free to contact us! We are enjoying this conversation. If you would like to follow-up, please feel free to do so. Ken and Catherine ken@northstarteens.org catherine@northstarteens.org

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