Education Chat

Re-Creating Public Education in New Orleans

Paul T. Hill, director of the Center on Reinventing Public Education at the University of Washington, believes that in post-hurricane New Orleans, American school planners will be as close as they have ever come to a "green field" opportunity.

Re-Creating Public Education in New Orleans

Paul T. Hill is the director of the Center on Reinventing Public Education at the University of Washington
Ann Bradley, assistant managing editor, Education Week, who oversees coverage of urban education issues.

Oct. 5, 2005

Kevin Bushweller, assistant managing editor, Education Week.

Question from Education Administrator, Baton Rouge:
New Orleans has long had a very strong union presence. How does the redesign of the system deal with the stranglehold this group has had on this school system?

Ann Bradley:
I would assume that would be a central question. One big issue that looms is which educators will get the jobs in the schools that reopen. I don’t know if there are rules in place for making such determinations, or whether this will touch off another battle.

Question from Rob Wyssbrod, Independent researcher, Dallas, Texas:
Do you think the NOPS school board will be supportive of the reform or a hindrance?

What, if anything, should be done by the state and local community to make sure the district governing authority supports the reform effort?


Ann Bradley:
This seems to be the question of the day. To date, the school board as a body hasn’t indicated any interest in or awareness of the need to restructure the system, although some individual members seem open to new ideas. Members have dismayed the public and state officials, in fact, by resuming the same infighting and racially charged conflict that characterized the board before the storm. The headline on yesterday’s Times-Picayune story says it all: “School Board Politics Emerge Intact; Division May Hamper Rebuilding Opportunity.” The story quotes the state superintendent of public instruction, Cecil Picard, as saying the district has serious problems that he pledges to address. So we’ll see.

Question from Constance Nichols, Instructor, Grove City College:
Half a century after Brown Vs. Board of Education we still struggle with schools that are segregated along racial and ethnic characteristics. What are your thoughts on how the New Orleans Public School System can address issues of providing diversity in a new school system?

Ann Bradley:
It is my understanding that the New Orleans public schools have faced very stiff competition from private and Catholic schools for a very long time. Families say over and over again that they want good schools for their children, and to the extent that the public school system can provide them, they will enroll. The bottom line is they have to deliver. I have read numerous quotes from New Orleans parents who are delighted not to have to send their children to the city’s schools, which is a very sad commentary on how things were.

Question from Mary Lang, School Psychologist, Berrien County, GA:
How can the people who will work and learn in those schools become the caretakers of the process that manages the vision of what they want their school systems to be? Shouldn’t it be their dream that arises out of the “green field”?

Paul T. Hill:
This would be an easier question to answer if we knew who was going to be there. It sounds like half or more the famlies once in N.O. may stay elsewhere. My goal is to create an adaptable school system that can be solidified once it is clear who will be in New Orleans in what neighborhoods,a nd what they will want and need for schools.

Question from Joan T. Wynne, Professor, Florida International University:
How will the voices of the people from the New Orleans 9th ward and grass-roots organizers within that city play significant roles in the decision-making process of rebuilding the schools?

Ann Bradley:
People have to come back before all the local community governance structures are put in place. It is a bit of a chicken and egg problem, and I am suggesting the state act to provide schools so the neighborhds can re-emerge.

Question from Darren Conley, Principal, Wellington High School:
Thinking of the Phoenix rising from the ashes, what types of “outside-the-box” ideas do you have for rebuilding the school system(s) without the constraints of existing older district facilities?

Paul T. Hill:
The main point is not to buld special purpose school buildings until you know where the students will be. The key is leasing and use of highly flexible space that can be easily adapted to different uses. You might find a paper on my Center’s website ( interesting. it is Getting Ahead of the Curve, by DeArmond, Taggart, and me.

Question from Margot Welch, Instructor, Harvard Graduate School of Education:
Will/ can planners consider the full service/community school model - extended hours, extended services, extended family involvement - as they rebuild the district?

Will they really rebuild the district schools?

Ann Bradley:
It’s way too early to answer such questions, because right now it’s not clear who the “planners” of the district will be. As I said earlier, there is no real evidence coming from the school board of fresh thinking. Perhaps arguing for such things is a role that community groups could play.

Question from Bonnie Coppola, World Language Teacher/Spanish,Race Brook Elementary School, Orange, Ct, retired 6/05:
If it were possible to ask parents what kind of an education they’d like their children to receive, they’d probably come up with conglomerate concept based on what’s best in religious, private, and public schools. What would you pick from each of those to bring to your new model ?

Paul T. Hill:
I would offer lots of choices rather than requiring people to negotiate uot their differences. That’s where the conglomeration happens.

This is another chicken and egg problem, NO needs to ofer schools before neighborhoods and civic groups stabilize. Any effort to put just one model f schooling in place us sure to miss many needs. That’s why options are necessary.

Question from Rachel Vella, Committee Volunteer, YWCA New Orleans LA:
Rebuilding the education system in New Orleans is more important than any sports team, or any attraction. The only way to have New Orleans ever to grow as a city is to educate. But how do we rebuild a school system that is so corrupt?

Ann Bradley:
The district needs to have financial systems and practices in place to safeguard against the sorts of corruption that have made headlines in New Orleans. These are not unknown or rocket science, but for a variety of reasons, haven’t been in place in New Orleans. This is one reason that, prehurricane, the district could not account for how it had spent $70 million in federal Title I money and why the state superintendent insisted that the board hire Alvarez & Marsal, the crisis-management firm, to get its operations in order. So the district is moving toward reform in these critical areas.

Question from Laura McBain--Learning Points:
Please explain or expand upon how school finance should be re-developed in New Orleans. Given that pre-Katrina, large numbers of urban New Orleans schools were not equal due to facility differences and community contributions, how should the state of Louisiana develop its school finance system so that the inequities that were prevalent throughout the city are diminished? It seems as if the rebuild could be an excellent opportunity to finally make all schools equal.

Paul T. Hill:
Money, real dollars, should follow kids to the schools they attend, and schools should then pay for the teachers they hire and the services they need. State and oocal sources should be combined into one lunp sum. That’s the only workable school, finance system where there is really no infrastructure in place.

Question from Lisa Ross, Federal Policy Director, Pre-K Now:
I’m not sure how many of the displaced children from New Orleans lost their pre-k programs but it is a great loss to these children. What should be done in rebuilding the school system in New Orleans to address the pre-k needs of its children and do you think high-quality pre-k could have a significant impact on the K-12 success of children as their families seek to move back to the city and rebuild their lives from scratch?

Ann Bradley:
Most experts would agree that children from poor families, which make up the majority of the enrollment in New Orleans, need high-quality preschool programs. So theoretically, yes, this should be a priority. I don’t know whether New Orleans had a system of publicly funded preK before Katrina, or whether there will be enough money afterward to start one.

Question from Jamecca Marshall, researcher, Alliance for Excellent Education:
From the data I have see, Orleans Parish School District’s dismal student performance is right one par with most Louisiana and most public schools in the state. What particularly reform do education advocates think they can implement in Orleans with its 78% poverty rate, that isn’t currently being blocked and obstructed in other parts of the state?

Paul T. Hill:
NO needs to bring new talent into the public schools and create incentives for the ablest people to create and work in schools in the most challenging neighborhoods. Equal funding for every child who goes to school in NO is step one. Asking universities, nonoprofits, etc, to take on schools will also bring in new talent, and some peoplem who really want to serve the poorest.

There are no guarantees here -- but a reshudffling of funds and infusion of talent will surely help.

Question from David N. Hingston, AIA, Principal Educational Planner, Cannon Design:
How can the shape (not to mention the curriculum and policies) of a successful public school system be determined while the socioeconomic future of the city is so profoundly unknown?

Paul T. Hill:
These questions can’t be answered in advance. That’s why I favor a variety of options and arrangements that get rid of unsuccessul or unpopular schools

Question from :
What role do you see virtual schools, which require none of the costly, impossible to relocate infrastructure, playing in the rebuilding effort? Would they be on the same footing as the public and parochial bricks and mortar schools, at least in the short term?

Paul T. Hill:
I tbink virtual schoolls will have a place, and that energing schoosl should make as much use of on-line instruction as they can, at least until facilities and the teachign force are stabilized.

Question from Dr. Pamela Gerloff, CEO, Compelling Vision:
I would like to see opportunities created for genuinely new concepts in education to take form--not based on old assumptions and outdated models, e.g., instead of localized schools housed in a specific building with x number of teachers and x number of students, create “community learning networks” with an entirely different structure and form (such as neighborhood learning centers with guides and mentors, flexible hours, available to people of all ages--contact me at to learn more about what such a model might look like). How would you open up the field for such new models to occur?

Paul T. Hill:
I agree with you. Funds follow the child, multiple providers, etc. are all ways to let this happen.

Question from Rosemary Edwards:
If there was ever a need for empowerment for parents of children there certainly is in New Orleans! Why not look at some other (troubled, urban) school districts and learn from their approaches? What about Washington DC? Why not give parents a choice about where to send their children to schools in New Orleans?

Ann Bradley:
Many people agree with your comment, although when you say “choice” I am not sure whether you mean vouchers, which some are backing for New Orleans students, or choice among a variety of public schools. As time goes on, we will see how many families actually return to the city and enroll their children. I have read a couple articles quoting parents as saying they are going to remain in Texas or Florida and look for work because they are much more satisfied with their children’s new schools.

Question from William E. Butler, Adjunct Prof. - Concordia Univ - River Forest, IL:
While I agree with Mr. Hill’s “greenfield” opportunity assessment of the New Orleans situation, as an urban education professional, I’m concerned about New Orleans becoming victimized by the politically connected “do gooders” who will be pushing their own agendas (EMOs, SES providers, Voucher proponents, and countless others with “profit” as their sole purpose for coming to the table). What does Mr. Hill have to offer to guard against these predators?

Paul T. Hill:
There must be responsible public oversight. That’s why I suggested appointment of a master who could license and close schools. Somebody has to protect scudents and take resosibility for school quality -- functions tha the old NO schoo board didn’t perform very well.

You and I have fears on opposite ends of the spectrum, however. I think it will be difficult to attract teachers and school providers into such an unpredictable environment, and don’t think people and groups who care only about profit will find this a very attractive opportunity.

Question from Steven McAlpine, reseracher, Harvard Graduate School of Education:
Are there any case studies for “rebuilding a school system from scratch” on which you can build a strategy (i.e. has this been done before)?

Paul T. Hill:
Not to my knowledge. In the absence of real cases, my center has tried to simulate the experience. Some of the results are written up in Fixing Urban Schools and in It Takes a City, both published by Brookings.

In simulations, experts (school board members, union people, teachers, superintendents, academics) would build a moc nore flexible and transparent system than we now have.

Question from Beverly Lee, Teacher, Palm Beach County School District:
What will be done to attract dedicated, qualified teachers to the devasted area? What type of incentives will be offered?

Ann Bradley:
The New Orleans public schools are now asking families and employees to get in touch with them to take a rough head count and figure out how to reopen a handful of schools before the end of the year. We don’t know what the numbers will look like. It is theoretically possible that there will actually be more teachers than are needed, which raises questions about how schools will be staffed and whether teachers who aren’t immediately needed will move elsewhere or leave the field. As it is, having a good paying job in the city is incentive enough, since these are scarce.

Question from Carol Wright, Researher:
Issue: Taking advantage of csmaller class size.

This might be a good time for teachers to really capitaize on the fact that their classes will likely be smaller than usual. How might the benefits of small classes be documented and sustained in New Orleans?

Paul T. Hill:


Question from Charlie Toulmin, Senior Policy Analyst, NGA Center for Best Practices:
The high school research shows it is easier to change the structure of high schools (small schools, for example) than the way they are staffed and how instruction is delivered. Is this an opportunity to do so, if so, what are your suggestions, and what should the state role be?

Paul T. Hill:
I would start wholy new high schools whenever possible. Some pre-existing schools might re-emerge in neighborhoods where all the students and teachers return soon, but I’m betting that is rare. It shoudl also be easier to locate spmall schools in existing commercial space. This is a great opportunty for the Gates Fondation to use all it has learned.

Question from Larry Tinnerman, Doctoral Student and Teaching Associate: Professional Studies in Education, Indiana University of Pa.:
Understanding that urban schools suffer the greatest inequity in regards to the achievement gap in America, how would you address this issue so that it does not reinvent itself once again in New Orleans and how important a role will technology play in this process?

Paul T. Hill:

Question from Jim Kohlmoos President NEKIA:
How best to ensure that research based practices and policies are being implemented in the re-design practice. What is the best way to build a knowledge base over time about what worked and what did not?

Paul T. Hill:
We need a serious research intiative, analogous to the Consortium on Chicago Schools Research, to document successes and failures.

Question from Brenda K. Webb,Curriculum, Sullivan County Schools TN:
During this education rebuild, will you uncover reform areas that could possibly change the national education portrait?

Paul T. Hill:
If we are lucky New Orleans will teach us a lot about how to serve urban neighborhoods that have been poorly served for decades.

Question from Brian Menard, MEd student, UMass-Lowell:
Mr. Hill, what characteristics of the system as it was made it less adaptable, and what characteristics of reform would make the rebuilding system more adaptable and able to handle the fluctuations in numbers that NO schools are likely to face?

Paul T. Hill:
Dollars follow kids. Scholls hire teachers and buy what they need. Teachers work where schools want them and excellent teachers can negotiate salary premuims. Unions serve as professional organizations and hiring halls, as proposed by Kerchner and Koppich, United Mind Workers. Schools that nobody wants to attend or teach in must close. New schools are always being developed by some government agent, e.g. the Master I proposed. Lots of philanthropic money to start schools and support school problem solving.

Question from Patrick Bird, Superintendent, Richmond, MI:
In your opinion, should the High Schools that are re-created be thematic and/or magnet schools?

Paul T. Hill:
Yes, intially. Though in truth I would recommend letting any plausible group of teachers and administrators start a high school, and a few simple ones on the Catholic school model (essentially small comprehensives) would be a good idea.

Question from Brian Menard, MEd student, UMass-Lowell:
NO needs schools up and running ASAP, yet how far can NO go in rebuilding the school system until it knows whether the number of students it needs to service will be 80%, 50%, 30%, or some other proportion of its former student population?

Ann Bradley:
As I mentioned, Alvarez & Marsal and the interim superintendent have issued a bulletin asking parents and empoloyees to get in touch so they can begin reopening schools and staffing them, etc. They are moving one step at a time based on assessments of buildings, etc. On National Public Radio this morning, I am told, a member of the Louisiana state board of education said she thought there might only be 10,000 to 15,000 students served this year by the district. In a way, you could envision that opening schools on an “as needed” basis provides an opportunity to pick the best people to run them and to pay close attention to the programs they offer, but I have no idea if that is how it will actually feel or play out in the city.

Question from Dale Harris, Director, Local Initiatives, Prudential Financial:
Can any nonprofit organizations be identified that will (or should) play a key role in thoughtful, creative, long-range planning? Any existing concensus-building organizations that need our support?

Ann Bradley:
Before the storm, there were nascent efforts led by Sen. Mary Landrieu and local officials in higher education, I believe, to get a foundation off the ground to incubate good ideas for schools in New Orleans.

Question from Christy Raby, Student at WGU:
Given the chance to completely recreate the education system, with the previous knowledge of the downfalls of the system, what is your vision of the new education system.

Paul T. Hill:
This takes a long answer. The Progressive Policy Institute will soon publish a paper on a portfolio managed public education system, which lays it out as well as I CAN.

Question from Jim Moore, Teacher, Tipp City Ohio:
When you refer to restructuring, what exactly are you making a reference to? Will this include a restructuring of the buildings, the curriculum, the personnel, financing, and/or something else? Also, how are the schools funded in Louisiana? Could you foresee funding being a critical roadblock to reorganization, or is the State and Federal government going to help? Thanks!

Paul T. Hill:
I don’t think I uised the word restructuring. There is no structure there at all now. Moreover, many buildings, teachers, etc. are just gone. This is more starting from scratch. i favor the feds acting as a funder only and letting the state re-create a pubouc education system that fits the spcaial crcumstances of post-hurricane NO.

None of this will work unless both the state and the feds let money follow kids. The old schooll finance arrangements are irrelevant. Thay relied on local property tax revenues for a significant share of schoo; funding, and the local tax base is gone.

Question from :
If New Orleans creates a multiple provider model as you have proposed, how would N.O. establish an effective oversight system that could be relied on by parents, community and taxpayers to provide them with the data on student achievement, teacher qualifications and appropriate use of public dollars?

Paul T. Hill:
They would need a public authority like a charter authorizer, which is the master I proposed. And they would need a totally independent information provider, which would have no loyalty to any school provider, but just exist to inform parents and the public.

If money followed children to schools then schools would be like nonprofits that nhad to account for their funds. Someone would have to help new schools do this. It would make it much easier to see where publoic dollars are going (easier than under the pre-existing school system).

Question from John A. Martin, Ed. D. Superintendent of Schools, Granview CSD# 4, Grandview, Mo. 64030 (South of Kansas City, Mo.:
Has consideration been given to reconstituting the schools as they are reopened to provide the best chance for compatible and competent staffing across the district? I recall from my reading that some of the schools were concentrations of new or less qualified teachers while others were thw opposite with better teachers and experienced staff. Reconstitution would be an opportunity to address this inequity.

The off time for teachers could be used as an opportunity for staff development in areas of demostrated need based on data. It is a great opportunity to grow the staff you want from the staff you have through training.

Ann Bradley:
I can’t answer that, but Education Week will be covering the “restaffing” in coming weeks. Given that it’s unlikely that any school will be reopened with the same staff and student population as before the storm, the schools are being “reconstituted.” It’s not at all clear to me that the district has the capacity to do the training you describe, and money is going to be incredibly tight.

Comment from Linda Johnson, Board of Elementary and Secondary Education Member:
In rebuilding a new system what’s the first step, please consider that there is a locally elected board, a mayor who has expressed interest in takeover and those of us on BESE who feel we need to be very involved in building a world class urban school system.

Question from Yvonne Mitchell-Grubb, Secretary, Committee for a Better N.O. /Metro. Area Committee:
What adavantage would there be for parents if a portion of the disctrict is chartered?

Paul T. Hill:
Parents will just need a good school for their children. They won’t care who runs it. The same should be true of the state government: its job will be to get good, safe competent schools set up in NO as quickly as possible. If it can put some pre-existing schools back on their feet, it should do so. But many will have disappeared -- building wrecked, kids and teachers dispersed. Chartering or somethign like it commissioning people to create schools -- will be necessary in such cases.

Question from Lynn Deutsch, parent:
Is the federal government considering any kind of financial help to allow the New Orleans school system to avoid layoffs?

Ann Bradley:
Not that I have heard of. In any event, such a move would have to be applied to all of the school systems in Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas that were affected the storms, wouldn’t it?

Question from Erin Dillon, Researcher:
With the calls for reform and new ideas, do you think rebuilding the NO school system as a charter school district is a possibility?

Paul T. Hill:
yes. Every school, no matter who runs it, should have an explicit funding ageeement with the state authority, and its continued existence shold depend on whether it performs and whether families want to send children to it.

This will require a strong public authority that can turn down weak groups that want to run schools and encourage formation of new schools to replace failed ones. The authority should not care whether a school is run by former district employees or someone else. But ti shold make sure educators ahve a chance to succeed - otherwise NO will not have enough people to teach its children.

To me that’s what a charter district is about,

Question from Bruce Goldberg, Chief Ed. Officer, Co-nect:
Why not think about a K-16 system? If so, how?

Paul T. Hill:
I’d be for it, especially if Dillard and Xavier can’t recover in time to serve the students who expected to attend them. I would also favor having universities -- including some from other states -- create middle college programs that could lead to university admission after grade 14.

I’m afraid the system will initially be fragmented, a lot of little schoolls here and there. But after the emergency is over there will be a big advantage to schools that can take care of kids all the way to adulthood. Nor everyone will want that, but I’m betting a majority of families will.

Of course it is harder to talk aout financing a system that pays for everyone past grade 12, but louisiana would enter the modern world if this could be done.

Question from Robert VanderZwaag, Director of Education Programs, Cornerstone University:
Has any one group or individual yet been assigned to coorordinate or oversee the effort to rebuild/restructure the schools of New Orleans? Is this ultimately a decision of the state board of education, local school board, state legislature, or whom?

Ann Bradley:
Right now, the school system looks fairly traditional, with a school board and an interim superintendent. It’s their job to run the schools. However, its finances and operations are being run under contract by a New York City-based crisis-management firm that bid on teh work at the behest of the state, which was and is under pressure to clean up the district’s financial woes. (They could not account for spending some $70 million of federal money, a situation that was unprecedented as far as we could tell.) The board isn’t unified, as I have said, and the management firm has periodically seemed to put the brakes on local politicians’ pronouncements about the system, so it’s very unclear now. The state legislature acted about two years ago to try to stabilize the district by curtailing the power of the local school board, and it is my understanding that legislation would again be required to make further changes.

Question from Garnett Arnold, Student, MPA Program, University of Oklahoma:
How much money is it going to take to get the NOPS up and running again?

Ann Bradley:
That depends on how many students come back. As Mr. Hill has repeatedly stated, there isn’t any funding stream right now and you don’t need to rebuild the entire system if it’s not needed.

Question from Brian Menard, MEd student, UMass-Lowell:
Realistically, what is a time-frame for seeing NO schools running “full service” with athletic programs, extra-curricular programs, arts programs, etc., or is it impossible to make any sort of guess at this point?

Ann Bradley:
In a word, impossible. So many families have been displaced. Many many commentators are saying that the city will never again have the number of residents it once had, so of course the district can’t go back to business as usual with no customers! One would sure hope that the schools that do open are able to offer students a program with after-school activities and arts and sports.

Question from Jim Flanagan, Consultant:
Paul - I appreciate your comments about the need for “lots of choices” and the pitfalls of “just one model.” However, doesn’t the system need some common curriculum, baseline standards and benchmark testing to insure quality?

Paul T. Hill:
Yes. I see the problem in two phases: first, just getting schools in place to make sure kids don’t lose years of instruction. Second, creating a system that works for the longer run. I think a charter-like approach would stll be best for the second phase, but thayt requires a testing system which in teurn needs some basic curricular structure. As always, there’s the question of how much cirrucular prescription is too much. But it makes sense to require readign in all grades, decmals and fractions around 6th grade, etc.

Question from Steve Raney, Esq. Staff Attorney, Williamson County Schools:
So far the questions have surrounded curriculum and finance reform, but as most school district realize and can attest to, if you want to make changes, you must have the athletic facilities open and the teams playing. While I am being facetious in some ways, I am wondering how much athletics will figure into the new Orleans Parish Schools. Athletics is one positive force in middle and high schools.

Ann Bradley:
I’ve got to imagine that sports will be part of the scene once schools open again, but like everything else, will probably have to adjust to meet realities.

Question from Kathy Donnison, HS Teacher, Mamaroneck High Schhol,NY:
Could this be an opportunity to create a system of very small, nurturing schools - particularly at the secondary level? What would be the obstacles?

Paul T. Hill:
Most secondary schols will need to be small and adaptable, at least at first as students are tricklng back to NO. And they will need to be nurturing because kids will have been through a lot. The problem might be how to educate while doing enough nurturing --something that Catholic schools seem partcularly good at.

Doing this is hard -- that’s the obstacle. I don;t see any big legal or administrative barriers to it, unless the state is foolish wnough tom put the old system back into a situation it was not designed for.

Question from Anna B. James, Principal, Edgerton Elementary:
In an effort to “help” children of poverty, will does architects of the new school system fall victim to the allure of the “drill and kill’ literacy programs?

Paul T. Hill:
Children will have lost a lot of time in instruction. It makes sense to focus on core skills, in the way the Chicago summer school programs did ultil kids get back up to where they should be. My understanding was that Chicago used many methods, including some drill but lots of other methods too. The point was that kids got many hours’ reading instruction via a combination of methods. That seems right to me.

I would’nt go for Open Court exclusively, but I’m also not sure how well entirely learner-paced instruction would fit this situation.

Kevin Bushweller (Moderator):
Thank you for all your thoughtful questions and comments.

This chat is now over.

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